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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:57 pm 
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Erinys is probably the way to go.

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- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:14 pm 
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I need your comments for the run. If you're gonna describe it by segment, it's better to just describe things by section, since it's all combined. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:55 am 
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How would you have the Succubus soul at that point?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:01 am 
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yeah, i realized that the second after i posted. hence why the post is now gone.

in the future, i would like to look into an improved mode of movement. like how souls such as Catoblepas aid in backdashing in AoS, i wanna see if a soul can do that in DoS.

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Complete runs:
- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:09 am 
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Oh, okay.

I'd think that DoS's backdash is fairly weak in comparison to AoS's. But for the few long flat corridors, you could get the Valkyrie soul and buy some mana potions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:12 am 
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doncha think we buy enough for Menace?

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Complete runs:
- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:19 am 
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There aren't many Valkyrie spots, so the save point refills are probably enough most of the time, and there's a Valkyrie right on your way to Dmitrii that you can kill quickly. Manipulating the soul drop is going to be a pain, though.

There are Ukobacks and Werewolves on your way, too, but that's probably going to cost far too much mana to be worth it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:40 am 
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actually, on the current route, there are no Werewolves.

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http://youtube.com/Satoryu
Complete runs:
- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:28 am 
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Right, they're too far into Pinnacle. What do you have in mind for backdash transportation?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:32 pm 
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i'm thinking Medusa Head, as i believe that worked in AoS. haven't tested anything though. too busy with other games.

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Complete runs:
- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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 Post subject: Re: New Game SR sub hour
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:51 am 
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It seems that you guys have moved on to Order of Ecclesia, but hopefully someone else still has interest in this game. I finally started playing again, figuring out that Ukoback is the way to go on Paranoia (29:28 after that fight), and began another New Game run to test out some optimizations after seeing Satoryu's, Groobo's, and some of the TAS runs.

Unlike all of those though, I'm still sticking with non-SG runs, but sub-hour seems plausible at least at this point.

I'm just before Dario with a time of 14:02. There's a couple fights that could go better, and the running on each segment could be improved a couple seconds each (I usually ended up taking a hit). With more patience to repeat segments, there's probably 15-30 seconds of improvement.I saved time over Satoryu's run mainly by using less saves and getting doing boss fights. This weekend I should be getting back my video camera (assuming I can dig it out of storage) so I'll try to set up something so I can record when I get ready for non-test runs.

In case there is some interest for discussion, here's my run so far and plans for continuing:

Overall goals - Avoid item usage at almost all costs. I shouldn't be getting hit enough to warrant healing, and should be able to work out MP usage to save the Mind Ups for the harder bosses.

Segment 1: Tutorial, Yoko Cutscene. Get at least 1 Axe Armor soul, Axe if possible. Save to the right of Flying Armor. Pretty standard, but skipping the first save Satoryu did. It's probably pretty impossible to get both a soul and axe, but one can always hope I guess.

Segment 2: Get 2nd Axe Armor soul, defeat Flying Armor. Save in Wizard's Lab. The TAS fight against Flying Armor is amazing, although a little unreasonable. Also, doing the jump in the room after him without the flying armor soul should mandatory.

Segment 3: Get Manticore Soul, buy Axe and recovery items, Synthesize Bhuj, save before Balore. Again, removing a segment from Satoryu's run. Seeing as how Bat company was the only reason to get the Bomber Armor soul, and it's better to use Ukoback on it (who knew this was such a good soul?), there's no reason to get it or save in The Lost Village.

Segment 4: Defeat Balore, save in entrance of Garden of Madness. No changes. The only thing of note is to not use Mind Ups.

Segment 5: Activate Garden of Madness warp, get Yorick, save in Dark Chapel entrance. Pretty terrible segment. I tried saving in the second save point as groobo did, but it's definitely further out of the way. It's also more prone to error obviously, and when getting Yoricks it's easier to just let it slide. I got ghost'd off of the platform in the room with the witch and had to wait for it to go all the way up and come back down again. Easily lost about 5-7 seconds just on that.

Segment 6: Defeat Dmitrii (7 Yorick, 2 axe hits), defeat Malphas. Warp to Garden of Madness, save before Dario. A long segment, but the bosses are super easy. If you count the Yoricks on Dario, then you don't have to Mind Up between battles, and you'll have enough for the 3 Yoricks you can do at the start of the Malphas fight. If he lands during the fight, Soma will have enough MP for another 2-3 Yoricks. I usually take the time penalty to collect the orb thing after the fight, just to conserve on items and make sure I don't die because it's better to skip the Dark Chapel save point (saves about 11-13 seconds). The other note is that I skip the Ninja Suit since I pick up Olrox's Suit at Paranoia.

Segment 7: Dario, get Cutall from puzzle. Save in Demonic Dollhouse on the way back. Strategy is Bhuj -> backdash -> Yorick. Get at least 2 kick hits for 6 total damage, then you need 6 sets of Bhuj/Yorick, and then a last Axe hit to finish him off. I got a really good fight doing this, took 17 seconds.

Segment 8: Climb the tower and save to the right of zephyr. Long segment with a lot of running through rooms with spikes, Medusa Heads, and Imps, but I'll see if I can keep it as one segment.

Segment 9: Defeat Zephyr, warp to Wizard's Lab, go to Subterranean Hell, get Ukoback, save to the right of the waterfall. If I'm going to get Dead Pirate, I'll have to split this segment into two. If that soul doesn't prove necessary, then this segment will be a run all the way to Silent Ruins.

Segment 10: Get Dead Pirate and save before Bat Company. Should be pretty easy.

Segment 11: Defeat Bat Company, warp to The Clocktower, run to The Pinnacle and save.

Segment 12: Get Killer Clown, defeat Paranoia (Ukoback spam first form, 1 round kill; Ukoback/Bhuj 2nd form, 2-3 rounds dependent on level, 1-2 Mind Ups dependent on level), run toward Aguni and save near there. It's a little dangerous to do this, but even if you take the time to get the replenishing orb, and take a little extra time in the riskier rooms, it'd still be faster than adding another save.

Segment 13: Break the secret entrance above Aguni's place and get the Fragarach and Satan's Ring, defeat Aguni? Save back at the first place in Pinnacle. I really don't know how to approach this fight very well. It looks like I might just be doing mostly Bhuj attacks and however many Axes I can throw. With the HP he has, it'll be about a 2 minute fight.

Segment 14: Get Erynis, watch the cutscene, don't die or mess up and make it to the save at the bottom of the mine and save so you don't waste the Erynis drop. Probably going to be a really frustrating segment. One thing would be to use the warp to go to The Lost Village and restock on items. I won't be able to judge until I know how many Mind Ups I have and just how many Erynii Death will take (or even what the strategy will have to be). It might be the right thing to do anyway since between Paranoia, Aguni, Death, and Abaddon the 5 Mind Ups and 1 Mana Prism won't hold out. Blah, that's so far out of the way...

Segment 14: DEATH. SAVE.

Segment 16: Abyss up to Abaddon.

Segment 17: Abaddon and the rest of the Abyss. Detour to restock.

Segment 18: Defeat Gergoth. Maybe go and find the Yeti.


So, sub-hour is borderline possible I think. I'm hoping that because I'll be about 5-6 levels higher than the SG runs, the Menace run will be a minute or two shorter, which makes up for one of the extra boss fights I'll be going through. Other than that, just judging from Satoryu's run, there's 20 minutes of leeway, and the Pinnacle stuffs is probably only about 8 minutes. Death would tack on another 3-4 probably. Abaddon will probably take 3.


Souls which I could get, but am not:

Valkyrie - Impossible drop, limited usefulness (I can't see it saving any appreciable amount of time).
Werewolf - MP conservation and Lv. 1 Ukoback (only 3 fires at a time).


Planned souls (that differ from SG runs):

Ukoback - Surprisingly effective on a number of bosses, and necessary to get to Paranoia.
Killer Clown - Necessary to get to Paranoia.
Dead Pirate? - Might make the Abaddon fight go faster. I haven't thought out much strategy for him yet, but I'll pick it up on this test run and try it out.


Other oddities:

I don't think I'll be doing any of the backdash hopping or double jump kicks for saving time. The kicking is at least reasonable from a technical standpoint, but neither save a significant amount of time. Across a 5 square area, normal running is 13 seconds, kicking is 11, and backhopping I've gotten to 9 a couple times. However, there's not a whole lot of places where I just run without doing something, needing to avoid/kill enemies, or would like to restart because i jumped straight up a couple times instead of backdashing (messing up even a few times on either completely negates any of the speed gains). There are a few places where I do kick repeatedly, but it's just to stay above enemies (running to Aguni springs to mind).

So yeah, over the course of the whole run, I can't see either saving as much time as has been said. However, given the option, I'd learn to backhop most of the, and my opinion may change if I suddenly figure out how to be amazing with it.


Last edited by Aftermath on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Game SR sub hour
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Well, if you intend to submit to SDA at some point, you should probably wait for the final category decisions before you get into planning too much. If the "full game" category is going to be defined as "without warping glitches" or something similar, you can still use the backstab SBs, but if it's a more general OoT-like "without large skips", I imagine those would be banned as well.


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 Post subject: Re: New Game SR sub hour
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm 
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backstab SGs are mainly used to skip bosses. i wouldn't thinks that's a major skip. if anything, Cutall special to unlock gates is more of a major skip because that eliminates the need to enter large chunks of the map.

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Complete runs:
- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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 Post subject: Re: New Game SR sub hour
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Well, the biggest difference between the two is that you can skip Paranoia and Aguni, which, based off my times, ends up being about 20% of the run. Granted that's not as much as the Cutall SB skips, but it's still a significant amount and changes the strategies a lot in the first and last parts of the game, assuming groobo's route is more or less the warp route.

Personally, I'd think the categories would be 100% (like Aos, just requires all bosses, so would be more or less the intended route), any% non-warp, and any% warp.

However, that does seem to throw the warping runs into a bit of conflict, depending on how humanly feasible the TAS path would be.


Extra question: Any estimate on when the categories will be finalized on SDA?


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 Post subject: Re: New Game SR sub hour
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:44 pm 
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i can't say for certain if the TAS route can be done on console. i have absolutely no experience with warping and all that jazz. but my gut says it could be done with sick timing.

and for 100%, the all boss definition only applied for Julius. i proposed early on for Metroidvanias that 100% would differ depending on the character:

- the main character has to achieve the best ending and get all character abilities (relics in SotN and things like that). for AoS and DoS, that would probably just mean all souls that aren't random drops.
-the secret character(s) have to beat all bosses.

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http://youtube.com/Satoryu
Complete runs:
- Dawn of Sorrow New Game w/o warping
- Symphony of the Night single segment 34:34
- The Dracula X Chronicles best ending 17:44


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